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	<title>Comments on: One last thing on bowgate</title>
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	<link>http://alchemytoday.com/2009/04/05/one-last-thing-on-bowgate/</link>
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		<title>By: orwellsghost</title>
		<link>http://alchemytoday.com/2009/04/05/one-last-thing-on-bowgate/comment-page-1/#comment-13108</link>
		<dc:creator>orwellsghost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 06:17:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alchemytoday.com/?p=270#comment-13108</guid>
		<description>Impromptu=  2.	Suddenly or hastily prepared, made, etc.: an impromptu dinner. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;John Adams got an impromptu course on how to curtsy to a King, his speech is an entirely different subject. The author here uses the miniseries of John Adams to make a point, well in that miniseries, which I own, you will see he got a crash course on bowing. He wasnt getting it right and he thought the whole thing was stupid.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If the Emperor of Japan has no power over government, then why is it &quot;required reverence&quot;?&lt;br&gt;Why did Obama bow so deeply to him with his eyes fixed on the ground?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In Japan Obamas version is known as the formal bow, so why was a formal bow to the Emperor of Japan necessary when he is not even the head of government?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;PS Bowing is not diplomatic protocol, it is the exact opposite when it comes to the President. When Adams did his bowing he wasnt President.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;American presidents do not bow before foreign dignitaries, whether they are princes, kings, or emperors.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Impromptu=  2.	Suddenly or hastily prepared, made, etc.: an impromptu dinner. </p>
<p>John Adams got an impromptu course on how to curtsy to a King, his speech is an entirely different subject. The author here uses the miniseries of John Adams to make a point, well in that miniseries, which I own, you will see he got a crash course on bowing. He wasnt getting it right and he thought the whole thing was stupid.</p>
<p>If the Emperor of Japan has no power over government, then why is it &#8220;required reverence&#8221;?<br />Why did Obama bow so deeply to him with his eyes fixed on the ground?</p>
<p>In Japan Obamas version is known as the formal bow, so why was a formal bow to the Emperor of Japan necessary when he is not even the head of government?</p>
<p>PS Bowing is not diplomatic protocol, it is the exact opposite when it comes to the President. When Adams did his bowing he wasnt President.</p>
<p>&#8220;American presidents do not bow before foreign dignitaries, whether they are princes, kings, or emperors.&#8221;</p>
<p>Period.</p>
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		<title>By: aboctok</title>
		<link>http://alchemytoday.com/2009/04/05/one-last-thing-on-bowgate/comment-page-1/#comment-13106</link>
		<dc:creator>aboctok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alchemytoday.com/?p=270#comment-13106</guid>
		<description>&quot;So there you have it&quot;?&lt;br&gt;&quot; half-assed bows&quot;? Really??&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There we have what? Let&#039;s not kid ourselves into deriving historical fact from IMAGINING a complex event of a different era to whatever convenient extent of accuracy that pleases us—eg, to start guaranteeing this or that! Arguments over whether presidents of the 18th Century would have or wouldn&#039;t have bowed to kings are pointless, because the act of bowing cannot easily and conveniently be interpreted separate to its social and political context!&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s always tempting to draw limitless conclusions from analysis of history, but keep it sensible. Instead of thinking, with our imaginations in free-fall that, gee, because he was American, there was no way he was going to bow to anyone, just read what HE himself wrote of the encounter! He made the required &quot;reverences&quot;—yes, required by fact of diplomatic protocol!—and then, we can only suppose, moved on from there! Why try to make a big deal over the details of formal niceties of a completely different social era, and attempt to derive some hints of national status?? It&#039;s all IRRELEVANT! By the way, you might want to look up the meaning of &quot;impromptu&quot;. Do you really believe that anything he did in that room was impromptu?? By his own admission, he memorised his speech!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So there you have it&#8221;?<br />&#8221; half-assed bows&#8221;? Really??</p>
<p>There we have what? Let&#39;s not kid ourselves into deriving historical fact from IMAGINING a complex event of a different era to whatever convenient extent of accuracy that pleases us—eg, to start guaranteeing this or that! Arguments over whether presidents of the 18th Century would have or wouldn&#39;t have bowed to kings are pointless, because the act of bowing cannot easily and conveniently be interpreted separate to its social and political context!</p>
<p>It&#39;s always tempting to draw limitless conclusions from analysis of history, but keep it sensible. Instead of thinking, with our imaginations in free-fall that, gee, because he was American, there was no way he was going to bow to anyone, just read what HE himself wrote of the encounter! He made the required &#8220;reverences&#8221;—yes, required by fact of diplomatic protocol!—and then, we can only suppose, moved on from there! Why try to make a big deal over the details of formal niceties of a completely different social era, and attempt to derive some hints of national status?? It&#39;s all IRRELEVANT! By the way, you might want to look up the meaning of &#8220;impromptu&#8221;. Do you really believe that anything he did in that room was impromptu?? By his own admission, he memorised his speech!!</p>
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		<title>By: orwellsghost</title>
		<link>http://alchemytoday.com/2009/04/05/one-last-thing-on-bowgate/comment-page-1/#comment-13005</link>
		<dc:creator>orwellsghost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 17:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alchemytoday.com/?p=270#comment-13005</guid>
		<description>Number 1. John Adams WAS NOT the President at the time, he was an Ambassador.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Number 2, he did not give the deep bowing required by the Kings subjects, he did 3 half assed bows and said he could not bring himself to bow any deeper.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So there you have it. &lt;br&gt;John Adams did not feel comfortable bowing to the King and only did his impromptu bowing because he was an Ambassador, if we were President at the time I GUARANTEE you he would not have bowed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Number 1. John Adams WAS NOT the President at the time, he was an Ambassador.</p>
<p>Number 2, he did not give the deep bowing required by the Kings subjects, he did 3 half assed bows and said he could not bring himself to bow any deeper.</p>
<p>So there you have it. <br />John Adams did not feel comfortable bowing to the King and only did his impromptu bowing because he was an Ambassador, if we were President at the time I GUARANTEE you he would not have bowed.</p>
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		<title>By: alchemytoday</title>
		<link>http://alchemytoday.com/2009/04/05/one-last-thing-on-bowgate/comment-page-1/#comment-8007</link>
		<dc:creator>alchemytoday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alchemytoday.com/?p=270#comment-8007</guid>
		<description>&quot;Didn’t anyone tell President Obama that Americans don’t bow down to anyone?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And besides, it&#039;s ridiculous.  Bush did the same thing.  Obama just did the same thing again on his Middle East trip, I believe.  Adams&#039; decision to carry out the three reverences was a decision to submit himself to the ceremony of a monarch that he&#039;d engaged in bloody rebellion against (with a lot of internal conflict), and Presidents since then have engaged in the meaningless ceremony that satisfies monarchs since the beginning, cf participation in military parades (memorably, sword dances in Bush&#039;s case) that only serve to appease a monarch with a display of power.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As for the Japan example, people huffed and puffed when Clinton bowed to the Emperor of Japan.  Don&#039;t kid yourself that the response would&#039;ve been any different had Obama bowed to the monarch of a country in which bowing is a common gesture.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s incredibly petty to imagine that bowing to someone objectively takes away any real leverage we might have with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Didn’t anyone tell President Obama that Americans don’t bow down to anyone?&#8221;</p>
<p>And besides, it&#39;s ridiculous.  Bush did the same thing.  Obama just did the same thing again on his Middle East trip, I believe.  Adams&#39; decision to carry out the three reverences was a decision to submit himself to the ceremony of a monarch that he&#39;d engaged in bloody rebellion against (with a lot of internal conflict), and Presidents since then have engaged in the meaningless ceremony that satisfies monarchs since the beginning, cf participation in military parades (memorably, sword dances in Bush&#39;s case) that only serve to appease a monarch with a display of power.</p>
<p>As for the Japan example, people huffed and puffed when Clinton bowed to the Emperor of Japan.  Don&#39;t kid yourself that the response would&#39;ve been any different had Obama bowed to the monarch of a country in which bowing is a common gesture.</p>
<p>It&#39;s incredibly petty to imagine that bowing to someone objectively takes away any real leverage we might have with them.</p>
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		<title>By: Dirt Lawyer</title>
		<link>http://alchemytoday.com/2009/04/05/one-last-thing-on-bowgate/comment-page-1/#comment-8006</link>
		<dc:creator>Dirt Lawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alchemytoday.com/?p=270#comment-8006</guid>
		<description>There seems to be a lot of baseless conjecture on this topic.  I appreciate your comments, but the protocol that applies to the President is different than that which applies to U.S. diplomatic personnel and ordinary American citizens.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The President is the head of state of a Republic, and therefore does not offer deferential courtesies to monarchs and other foreign government officers which are not reciprocated.  Bowing would be appropriate if the foreign head of state (or ambassador) does likewise, as for example, the Japanese do.  Cheek kissing is likewise appropriate if reciprocated, as the French and Russians do.  Under no circumstances would it be appropriate for the President to render the &quot;three reverences&quot; to a monarch (or a foreign head of state) as portrayed in the John Adams miniseries.  In the show, Adams was the ambassador to the court of King George III following the Revolution, and would not be elected President for another 11 years.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The basic principal of the governing protocol is that the U.S. President, as the head of state, deals with monarchs and other foreign heads of state as equals, not as a subject or supplicant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seems to be a lot of baseless conjecture on this topic.  I appreciate your comments, but the protocol that applies to the President is different than that which applies to U.S. diplomatic personnel and ordinary American citizens.</p>
<p>The President is the head of state of a Republic, and therefore does not offer deferential courtesies to monarchs and other foreign government officers which are not reciprocated.  Bowing would be appropriate if the foreign head of state (or ambassador) does likewise, as for example, the Japanese do.  Cheek kissing is likewise appropriate if reciprocated, as the French and Russians do.  Under no circumstances would it be appropriate for the President to render the &#8220;three reverences&#8221; to a monarch (or a foreign head of state) as portrayed in the John Adams miniseries.  In the show, Adams was the ambassador to the court of King George III following the Revolution, and would not be elected President for another 11 years.</p>
<p>The basic principal of the governing protocol is that the U.S. President, as the head of state, deals with monarchs and other foreign heads of state as equals, not as a subject or supplicant.</p>
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		<title>By: JOHN</title>
		<link>http://alchemytoday.com/2009/04/05/one-last-thing-on-bowgate/comment-page-1/#comment-6374</link>
		<dc:creator>JOHN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alchemytoday.com/?p=270#comment-6374</guid>
		<description>The President stooped and shook hands with the guy.  Sign of respect.  Bush held hands with the guy amongst the flowers for a nice stroll.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/27/eveningnews/main691413.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/27/eveni...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The President stooped and shook hands with the guy.  Sign of respect.  Bush held hands with the guy amongst the flowers for a nice stroll.  <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/27/eveningnews/main691413.shtml" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/27/eveni.." rel="nofollow">http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/27/eveni..</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: The Bow &#171; Buttle&#8217;s World</title>
		<link>http://alchemytoday.com/2009/04/05/one-last-thing-on-bowgate/comment-page-1/#comment-6254</link>
		<dc:creator>The Bow &#171; Buttle&#8217;s World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alchemytoday.com/?p=270#comment-6254</guid>
		<description>[...] of fealty&#8221; to the exact same foreign potentate? In fact, there&#8217;s a lot of precedent for bowing presidents.  The bow just looked like a bumbling amateur trying to be polite. Why He was  more polite to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of fealty&#8221; to the exact same foreign potentate? In fact, there&#8217;s a lot of precedent for bowing presidents.  The bow just looked like a bumbling amateur trying to be polite. Why He was  more polite to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: alchemytoday</title>
		<link>http://alchemytoday.com/2009/04/05/one-last-thing-on-bowgate/comment-page-1/#comment-6204</link>
		<dc:creator>alchemytoday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alchemytoday.com/?p=270#comment-6204</guid>
		<description>CNN probably took down the video when they saw people checking it out... was part of a stock video ordering site that they have that I figured out how to directly link to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CNN probably took down the video when they saw people checking it out&#8230; was part of a stock video ordering site that they have that I figured out how to directly link to.</p>
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		<title>By: BS</title>
		<link>http://alchemytoday.com/2009/04/05/one-last-thing-on-bowgate/comment-page-1/#comment-6203</link>
		<dc:creator>BS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alchemytoday.com/?p=270#comment-6203</guid>
		<description>your link on Bush bowing, kissing, and receiving a medal from King Abdullah doesn&#039;t work</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>your link on Bush bowing, kissing, and receiving a medal from King Abdullah doesn&#39;t work</p>
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		<title>By: alchemytoday</title>
		<link>http://alchemytoday.com/2009/04/05/one-last-thing-on-bowgate/comment-page-1/#comment-6197</link>
		<dc:creator>alchemytoday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alchemytoday.com/?p=270#comment-6197</guid>
		<description>Um, I was responding to, &quot;Didn’t anyone tell President Obama that Americans don’t bow down to anyone?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Now, if you&#039;re complaining that Obama breached diplomatic protocol.  That&#039;s fine.  It&#039;s somewhat different to think that, as many have, Obama is somehow hinting at future deference to a major figure in Islam (particularly, many have said this is more evidence that he&#039;s a secret Muslim).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t think that bowing is part of an Ambassador&#039;s job, by the way.  He&#039;s not a subject, and, beyond that, it&#039;s not required to subject yourself to *all* local customs.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;@Ben I agree that the reset button thing was one of the stupidest bits of diplomacy ever conceived.  It blows my mind that someone employed by Clinton/Obama came up with that idea, and that it was given the green light at several other points without someone saying something about the obvious reference there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, I was responding to, &#8220;Didn’t anyone tell President Obama that Americans don’t bow down to anyone?&#8221;</p>
<p>Now, if you&#39;re complaining that Obama breached diplomatic protocol.  That&#39;s fine.  It&#39;s somewhat different to think that, as many have, Obama is somehow hinting at future deference to a major figure in Islam (particularly, many have said this is more evidence that he&#39;s a secret Muslim).</p>
<p>I don&#39;t think that bowing is part of an Ambassador&#39;s job, by the way.  He&#39;s not a subject, and, beyond that, it&#39;s not required to subject yourself to *all* local customs.</p>
<p>@Ben I agree that the reset button thing was one of the stupidest bits of diplomacy ever conceived.  It blows my mind that someone employed by Clinton/Obama came up with that idea, and that it was given the green light at several other points without someone saying something about the obvious reference there.</p>
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